Everything Sad Is Going to Come Untrue
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone, and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast, where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace churches with our Executive Director. Mark, we were talking before we hit record, and it turns out — providentially — you've been reading a commentary on the book of Revelation. And as we record this, next Sunday is my last sermon preaching through the book of Revelation. You guys over at Covenant Fellowship preached through it many years ago. As I said, I'm currently doing it, and we both agree Revelation is a great book to preach through. So let's talk about that. Why would you say it's a great choice for a pastor when it comes to preaching through a book?
Mark Prater:
If a pastor has never preached through the book of Revelation, put it on your list for consideration. Hopefully, this podcast serves you and encourages you in that way. We preached through Revelation — it had to be over 20 years ago — at Covenant Fellowship Church. A wonderful series. You've most recently preached through it, with your last sermon this coming Sunday. And I think there are a number of reasons why it's a good book for a pastor or pastoral team to preach through.
First of all, the book of Revelation is just a difficult one to understand — and we can understand why members of our churches might even avoid it, because they don't know what it's saying. But it is the inspired Word of God, and we have to help them with that. I'm reading Dennis Johnson's book The Triumph of the Lamb devotionally, because I'm working through Revelation devotionally again. I read G.K. Beale's commentary a few years ago as I went through it devotionally, because I'm trying to make sure I understand it as an individual Christian, and of course as a pastor. So it's difficult to understand — that's a good reason right there.
Second, we can have people who are affected by a lot of information out there, certainly online, on the end times. And much of it is not good theology. There is a little bit out there that is good theology, and we want to inform our churches and the members of our churches with what the Bible truly says about the end times.
And third, we can also have people who come from various backgrounds — dispensationalists, for example, who will come into our church with that sort of framework or worldview. And preaching through Revelation is a way to help them. But you've been preaching through it, Ben. Those are just some of the reasons. What would you add? Why have you preached through Revelation?
Benjamin Kreps:
I agree with what you said. I've talked to a lot of people over — I think we've probably been in it for about eight months — who would just say it's intimidating, or even scary. I've had a number of people say, "It's scary, I just kind of avoid it." And then we have some other folks — many of them newer — who would come from a dispensational background, that sort of thing. And so they're bringing a very different perspective on a lot of things in the Bible with them.
And so it's an opportunity to help folks, like you said, read the Bible faithfully — read Revelation the way that Revelation wants to be read. It seems to me that a lot of issues that arise when it comes to Revelation are because we're approaching it with a very different mindset than the original readers would have had. And in order to do that, that takes study, it takes work, and folks need help with that. We're not trying to say the Bible is not clear — but we are talking about a kind of literature, apocalyptic, that no one has written in for 2,000 years. So I think some humility is appropriate, instead of just putting our Western categories on everything.
So it really is an opportunity to serve the church and strengthen the church. After all, right at the beginning — verse 3 of chapter 1 — it says: "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it." And I want to be blessed, and I'm confident that the folks in my church want to be blessed too. So that's a precious promise you get right up front when you open up Revelation — the reading and hearing and keeping of what's in Revelation brings blessing. And I think that would be an important reason as well to want to preach the book.
Mark Prater:
Right, right. Yeah. I would just add — reading through it again, it's those first two chapters, maybe into chapter three, where Jesus is standing among the lampstands, and those lampstands represent the church. And He does that even today. Just to meditate on that — that Jesus stands with your church, He knows it and loves it and cares for it. That just deeply affected me as I read through Revelation again. So another reason to read and preach the book of Revelation.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, what a joy it was in that section of Revelation to be able to distinctly recall encouraging folks in the sermon: if you want to know where Jesus is, you can always find Him walking among the lampstands — caring for His church, tending to His church, correcting us, encouraging us, strengthening us. That's just the beginning.
But that vision of Christ in glory permeates and forms the whole book. You're getting me started, man — I've been in this book, it's all I've been thinking about for a long time. I could go on and on. But give us some thoughts about structuring a series. There are epistolary sections — the letters to the churches — that are wonderful, convicting, and important. But much of it is not like that; it's a bit strange. There are large arguments being captured over the course of many pages. So how do you think about structuring a series through Revelation?
Mark Prater:
Well, I've got one thought to consider, but I really want to hear how you structured your series and why you went that way. I think Dennis Johnson's book The Triumph of the Lamb — which is a commentary on the PC bibliography, which I'll mention again — if you just look at the table of contents for that commentary, that could be a way to structure it. When you get to the letters to the seven churches, you've got to think that through a little. He devotes one chapter to each of those letters. You could do that, or you could decide to preach each letter individually, or you could preach three one week, four the next — something like that, because there are seven churches and seven letters.
I just recently read his chapter on the scrolls being opened, and he devotes a whole chapter to that. I think that made sense to me from a structural standpoint, even in terms of understanding that section of Revelation. So I would really recommend looking at Dennis Johnson's commentary and the table of contents. There are 15 chapters — the first is an introduction, which could be good to use as an introduction to a series like that, and chapter 15 is the conclusion: "What should this book do to us?" You could use that as well. But there are a lot of ways to structure this book. You mentioned the biggest theme — Christ permeates through it all. But how did you structure yours? Why did you go that way?
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, it did take some work figuring out how to go about it, because as I checked out what others had done in different commentaries, there are really a bunch of ways to do it. And I think some of it depends on what your church is used to. The church I serve is accustomed to me moving more slowly through books — for instance, we spent about three years in Romans, and the congregation didn't seem to have any issues with that. In fact, they'll express sadness at the end of a series.
But I've also seen some great preachers — I was at a conference in Louisville years ago — preach Revelation and they dropped in at times, summarized things, covered large areas in one sermon that for me would have been several. So like you're saying, there are a lot of ways to do it.
The way I chose — because I changed my approach about three months in — was that I knew at the beginning I was moving pretty slowly. I did preach each of the seven churches individually, and that got some really wonderful, important work done at the church. But I had thought I would start summarizing more, sampling texts to read publicly and doing more summary work for the bigger visions. Then around the beginning of this year, as we were coming back into the series after the seven churches, I was reading Revelation and I thought — it says the one who reads this is blessed, and those who hear and keep it are blessed. Well, I want to be as blessed as humanly possible. So I decided to read every single word of Revelation. That means lengthy Scripture readings, and none of us should be intimidated by that. It is always the most important and most precious part of any sermon when we open the Scriptures and read aloud. So I've been doing a chapter, sometimes two chapters at a time, here and there half a chapter — and that has turned into a lot more than 15 sermons. But I think it's been moving along well.
One of the interesting things to keep in mind is that a lot of what you're seeing in the heart of Revelation is recapitulation — a similar thing being described from a different angle. And so there is, because of that, some repetitiveness. I don't say that to criticize — clearly God knows we need to hear things a few times — but that's something to bear in mind as well, because you want each sermon to communicate the emphasis of the text. We moved at a more unhurried pace overall. Every now and again I'd hit a section that's just eight verses — like the first eight verses of chapter 21 on the new heavens and new earth — and I'd think, well, I'm just doing this small unit. And that allowed me to then do what I did last week: a second sermon on heaven in the rest of chapter 21 going into chapter 22.
I also leaned a lot into D.A. Carson's class on Revelation when he was at the Pastors College — that was profound. And I like his breakdown, so I leaned heavily into the way he broke down the teaching to structure the actual preaching plan.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, that's great. I think you're making one really important point right at the very beginning: you have to know your church and structure a series that will serve your church. Like you said, your church is okay with a longer series — there are churches it wouldn't serve to go that long, and a pastor knows that. So you've got some flexibility. And I'm glad you mentioned Carson's class — the resources there are just so helpful and outstanding, and his structure is really helpful to look at too.
Benjamin Kreps:
Absolutely. And speaking of Dr. Carson — let's talk about resources that we've found helpful in personal study of Revelation and in teaching it. What are some recommended resources?
Mark Prater:
I mentioned that a few years ago, devotionally, I worked through Beale's commentary on Revelation, which is over a thousand pages as I remember. It's technical, but really, really helpful. I would recommend that one. As I mentioned, I'm reading through Dennis Johnson's The Triumph of the Lamb right now. It's a commentary — I wouldn't put it in the category of an expository commentary, but it has elements of that in the way he presents and writes about it. I just find it very engaging. Beale is also engaging, but Johnson is probably a little less technical, which is why I'm finding it a bit more engaging. There's also a book I've had but don't think I've ever cracked open: Vern Poythress's book on Revelation, which you've mentioned as really, really helpful. So what resources have you found helpful?
Benjamin Kreps:
There are a number I've had in a pile of commentaries and books throughout the series. But one really valuable resource that a lot of people might not be aware of is that you can find D.A. Carson's Revelation lectures online — just type in "D.A. Carson Revelation lectures." I believe there's a blog run by someone named Kirk Miller who has them all there in a row. That's definitely where I was revisiting those lectures throughout my study — I had taken them a number of years ago but was going back to them.
That leads me to a second resource: Robert Mounce, in the NICNT series. Carson leans heavily into Mounce, and makes mention that he thinks Robert Mounce is as fine a scholar on Revelation as anyone because he's very familiar with apocalyptic literature, which is important. Beale is the same way. And I love the Vern Poythress book, which is succinct — much more accessible than the Beale book. On the back you have recommendations by Dennis Johnson, Robert Mounce, and Sinclair Ferguson for good measure. It's much more compact and accessible; in fact, it's the kind of thing I could put in someone in the church's hands without them struggling very much. It has a devotional quality to it, same as Dennis Johnson's. It's wonderful for warming your heart as you're preparing to preach, and also very full of quotable material. I think I probably quoted Poythress more than anybody else for the purpose of sermons.
And one other one I'd mention — the title is The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation. And then there's also the contribution in the ESV Expository Commentary series — very brief, briefer contributions to the different chapters in Revelation, but with great application thoughts. That's Tom Schreiner. You can never go wrong with Dr. Schreiner either.
I will say — as you mentioned earlier — the reason I selected these resources is because I did what I now do every time I'm preparing for a series: I go to the Pastors College bibliography, read Jeff Purswell's recommendations, and that leads me into the resources I select. And he has never steered me wrong.
Mark Prater:
Yeah. And for everyone listening to this podcast — not just pastors, but members of our churches — that Pastors College bibliography is available on our website. If you go to the Pastors College tab and hit "Resources"... in fact, there was a recent email that came out from the Pastors College directing attention to that resource. It's the best I've seen. I would highly recommend it not only to pastors, but even to members of our churches who can access it.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, it's a real gift. And Jeff has it divided up into different categories and different kinds of emphasis for different resources. It's just a gift — if you're not using it, you're impoverishing yourself. And we thank you, Jeff, for the gift of that bibliography. So in all of this we're talking maybe a little more shop when it comes to sermon prep and study. But what matters most is what God intends to accomplish in us when we preach through anything in the Bible — but specifically, since we're talking about Revelation, give us some thoughts about what effect this book should have on us.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, I think there are several. We've kind of mentioned a couple already. First of all: Christ standing among — not just standing there passively, but actively caring for — His churches. And that's not something that was just written about thousands of years ago. That is true today. That truth should strengthen us, comfort us, and cause us to worship Him.
And then, as you mentioned, Ben, Christ permeates through, and the triumph of the King is certainly something that can stir the soul to love Christ, worship Christ, and treasure Christ. But it also very clearly portrays a coming judgment. So as you preach through Revelation, there are opportunities to call people to respond to the good news of Jesus Christ, because this judgment is coming, it's very real, and we don't know the day or the hour. So we must be ready.
So that's another theme — the judgment to come. I thought Dennis Johnson's summary and conclusion was good. He had things like: see your situation in its true perspective, whether you're a believer or unbeliever; see your enemies in their true colors — the defeated enemies mentioned in Revelation; see your champion in His true glory, which is part of what Revelation presents — our champion, Jesus Christ, in His true glory. And one more: see yourselves in your true beauty. It is a book that causes you to long for the new heavens and the new earth. And there is a true beauty portrayed there so well in Revelation — not only in terms of our eternal bodies, our new bodies, but just the joy that will permeate eternity for those who have trusted in Christ. So those are just a few of the takeaways that come to mind. What would you add?
Benjamin Kreps:
That's really good. I would add a couple more. One very simple thing I've heard a handful of times — a surprising number of times actually — is people who've come to me individually and shared, "I used to be scared of Revelation and I'm not scared of Revelation anymore." And I think, well, that's good. Whenever we can help people to see all of God's Word as beautiful and essential, that's a pretty good effect.
And the reality is — like we mentioned briefly — there are some ideas about Revelation that I don't think are accurate, and they are common. Anytime anything kicks up in the Middle East, all of a sudden there are pronouncements and declarations and that sort of thing. And as far as I can tell reading Revelation, that's really not the takeaway. Even though there are some things in the book about the future, as far as I can tell the book is really about the way the world works between the first and second coming of Jesus. And it's given to us — and to the original readers in the first place, who were facing intimidation, persecution, and marginalization — as Christians, to persevere faithfully following Jesus in a world that doesn't love Christians.
If I could put in a plug: Ricky Alcantar and I have a podcast called The Clash Vs. that we have a few episodes out on the YouTube channel. In that first episode, we talked about Revelation — because that's where we get the idea for The Clash. We are in a conflict each and every day as Christians. As soon as a man pops out of bed, the reality of indwelling sin, worldliness — we have an enemy who prowls around seeking to devour Christians' faith. And Revelation makes us alert, aware, and wise about the danger, and then equips us to — in the words of Revelation — conquer our enemies by God's grace; to overcome the temptations and seduction and opposition of the world and of Satan.
And so one of the main things that I trust is happening — and I believe it is, at least in some measure — is that it's strengthening our allegiance to Jesus. Revelation is an all-in-with-Jesus book. It's unflinching in its call and its exhortation, continually, to hold fast to Jesus, to pursue purity, godliness, and devotion to Jesus.
I got into a conversation just this morning with someone in the church who's meeting with a young woman who appears to be on the brink of coming to faith. She's been coming with her family for a number of months, enjoying the preaching. But the phrase she used — and I think it's important — is that what she's getting from the Revelation series is: she realizes she has to go all in with Jesus.
Mark Prater:
Amen.
Benjamin Kreps:
And so she's counting the cost. And Revelation teaches us how to count the cost and go all in with Jesus — all the while, especially toward the end, but actually throughout the book. Once you get to chapters 21 and 22, you're just igniting a fresh passion, desire, anticipation, and longing for Jesus to return and set everything right — when everything sad is going to come untrue.
We just came off a sermon on chapter 21, verse 9 through chapter 22, verse 5. The glories there are just so unspeakably great. And the conversations we're having — like, "Can you imagine, one day we won't ever sin again?" And we're all thinking: not really. Right. Kind of. But what a relief. And that's almost just a fringe benefit.
Coming off last Sunday — in chapter 21, the measurements of the New Jerusalem, the bride, are a perfect cube. And all of a sudden we find ourselves one day living forever in the Holy of Holies — the other perfect cube in Scripture — where everything and everyone is completely devoted to God in unhindered, unfettered, unafraid fellowship constantly with God, where we will see His face. So — consider preaching through Revelation.
Mark Prater:
That's exactly right.
Benjamin Kreps:
It will equip you and your church to fight sin, to overcome anxiety, to stay faithful to Jesus in the face of opposition from the world, to long for His return. The list just goes on and on. We're really not even capturing everything here — but those are some of the things that have affected me, and that I think have affected the church I serve.
Mark Prater:
Wonderful. So well said. You can tell you've been in Revelation.
Benjamin Kreps:
Oh, I'm so sad it's coming to an end. One more next week.
Mark Prater:
Praying it goes well.
Benjamin Kreps:
Well, thanks. Any other thoughts before we go, Mark?
Mark Prater:
No, just some encouragement to look at this book and to maybe, at some point, if you're a pastor, consider preaching through it. And of course, for anyone listening or reading the transcript of this podcast — consider going through it devotionally, using one of the resources you and I have mentioned. You'll find it very edifying and encouraging in a number of ways.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes, absolutely. All right, Mark, well, good talking to you. And thank you everyone for checking out the podcast. We'll see you here next week, Lord willing. Bye for now.