Speaking Frankly with One Another
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT:
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Mark Prater podcast - where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace Churches with our executive director.
Mark, during your last State of the Union address, you talked about some concerns that you wanted to highlight. There are some issues you wanted to make sure were on our radar to help us grow as pastors in Sovereign Grace. You highlighted that you've observed that for a lot of guys, one challenge is interacting with our churches and with one another, is a reluctance to have hard conversations. And I think there's reasons for that. And you certainly have insight having observed across Sovereign Grace and been in many churches. So you have some thoughts here and you want to speak to us about this topic, specifically the issue of speaking frankly to one another, the need for us to be able to speak frankly to one another.
Mark Prater:
I wanted to talk about to, to kind of pick up back up from my State of the Union last year where I used hard conversation language. I want to say it a little differently in this episode and potentially in my next state of the union. I'll say a little bit more; I'm still working my state of the union, so I'm not sure where it will land, but it is that ability to speak frankly with one another.
And in this episode, I'm going to speak frankly, and I hope everyone listening knows that my motivation is for the good of Sovereign Grace. I believe that speaking frankly with one another is one of the ways that we speak the truth in love. And so there's a motivation on my part, that is loving in nature; meaning that I think we'll be stronger and more united if we have this ability and grow in this ability to speak frankly with one another.
And I say that just because of the unique seat in which I get to sit in Sovereign Grace - the executive director role. I have a lot of conversations with pastors and members of our churches. And I've noticed over time, and I've waited on this because I wanted to make sure it wasn't in a couple of interactions, but fairly consistently that I see this area in need of growth that we have, which is to speak frankly with one another. So as a leader, I'll talk with pastors and Sovereign Grace, and they may be talking about other pastors, whether that be on their pastoral team or in their region or in Sovereign Grace. As a pastor I can have conversations with members of my church or of other churches and they're talking about other members or they're talking about their pastor.
And some of those conversations are very well-intended. Pastors are seeking counsel about the issue they're talking about. But often I say to them, “Your next step is to go tell that person - that other pastor or for a member to tell the other member - what you just told me. That'll be your first step. Here's some ways that you can do that.” And I find many times that doesn't happen. And I've just sort of wondered why is it that we don't have this ability to speak more frankly with one another? It's an area that I desire for us to grow in in Sovereign Grace.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. There certainly are challenges to speaking frankly with others when it comes to challenging situations or observations about areas where growth is needed or critique. And we don't want to be pastors who are out to put people in their place and to walk around with a flamethrower. Maybe a few of us are more inclined that way. I'm sure you've seen a couple instances like that too, but not broadly speaking. Broadly speaking, to encounter a Sovereign Grace pastor is to encounter a grateful man, a happy man who loves Jesus and loves people. So what do you think it is that keeps us from having the frank conversations that we should be having?
Mark Prater:
Well, I want to talk about a couple of things, and I don't know if this is comprehensive. There may be more, but I wanted to mention two. The first one is I wonder if we lack a biblical conviction to have frank conversations. Ephesians 4:14-15 would be one of the places I would go into the Bible to develop a conviction in this area. You’ve heard these verses before, Paul writing to the church in Ephesus. He says, beginning in verse 14,
“So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.”
There's a wonderful contrast in those two verses to keep others from being blown around by the winds of doctrine that we see come and go, or deceitful schemes of cunning that we can all be exposed to. The way that you prevent that from happening – to actually serve someone else - is to speak the truth in love. And you speak that truth frankly, but in love and “in love” is very important that reveals the motive of why you're doing it. That's the motive of this episode of the podcast. It also reveals the method by which you deliver it. You deliver it in love, you deliver it with a spirit of gentleness, yet without withdrawing, withholding truth, speaking frankly. I believe that verse is really, really important and it gives us a good biblical anchor for why we should be able to speak frankly with one another.
I was looking at one of the lectures that Spurgeon gave to his Pastors’ College students in his book “Lectures to My Students.” Just a quick side note, the older I get - and I go back to these lectures again and again - the more I'm amazed at how well Spurgeon prepared his PC student. But in his chapter entitled The Minister's Ordinary Conversation, he says this to pastors,
“Be strong in principles, earnest in your tone and affectionate in heart. Let him [meaning the pastor], speak out like a man. And thank God for the privilege. There need be no reticence.”
This is a very important quote: strong in principles – you’ve got a biblical conviction to speak frankly. Earnest in tone - people experience your earnestness in the tone that you communicate with. And affectionate in heart - so you're speaking the truth in love. Those are all necessary to be effective to have frank conversations. But it's really an area that we need to grow in, and it begins with forming a biblical conviction.
I believe the second reason we don't have frank conversations, to say it this way, we're just nice guys. We have nice members of our churches. We want to be that way because we're followers of Christ. But I believe where niceness gets skewed is that we equate niceness with love.
And I don't believe that's what Ephesians 4:15 is talking about. To be loving someone means that at times you have to say things to them that are hard and that will make them uneasy. But it's for their good and that's truly loving them. It doesn't mean that we speak in a harsh way, we want to speak the truth in love as Spurgeon talks about. We must do it.
Another quote from Spurgeon in this same lecture, he says,
“It is to be hope that we [meaning we as pastors], shall never in our ordinary talk any more than in the pulpit, be looked upon as nice sort of persons whose business it is to make things agreeable all around and who have never have any possibility cause uneasiness to anyone, however ungodly their lives may be.”
He's saying you've got to say things that are uneasy at times in ordinary conversation, one-on-one interactions and from the pulpit. And when you do so, you're going to be serving and loving those that are in your care as a pastor. Or as a church member, you are committed in church membership to help one another grow in Christ and that includes speaking frankly with one another in love.
Benjamin Kreps:
I've often said to the church that I serve, “I've read the New Testament a bunch of times and I've never seen anywhere I command to be nice.”
Mark Prater:
That's true.
Benjamin Kreps:
The reality is niceness can simply be a facade for corruption, for a wolf. Wolfs are nice guys. That's how they get a hearing. We’re not after niceness, we are after all of the virtues commended to us in applying the gospel to our lives. That includes things like encouragement, and I think we're in the category of encouragement. Maybe that's a surprising thought in connecting these two things together. But even the author of Hebrews is saying to encourage one another every day, so we wouldn't be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Which means that encouragement also includes people speaking frankly about sin and challenges. And we want to do exactly what God's word says to do in that regard. And the reality is, all we have to do is read the biblical authors to find men who have hearts full of love and affection and gratitude - starting with Jesus - who said very hard things.
One of the greatest models we can look at is 1st Corinthians. I'm starting to preach through part of it soon at my church and Paul is going to say some really, really frank things to them, but they know that he loves them. You are not at all talking about somehow leaving behind, the distinctive culture of grace that we've enjoyed, whatsoever. That is the foundation for frank conversations that people can receive, as coming from a pastor who loves them and cares for them. We certainly don't want to be the kind of men who are known for constant critique, but straightforward conversation is necessary.
Here's the deal. Oftentimes, you know you need to have a conversation and you put it off - I think other guys can relate to this - it starts to eat at you and you think about it a lot, but it just continues to delay and it's just this lingering sore spot in the back of your mind. You have these thoughts like,
“I'm going to get to it! I don't want to get to it!”
Those thoughts are because you know it's going to be a challenging experience with someone that you care about who potentially will be uneasy - like you talked about. So, before we conclude, can you share some thoughts about the role of faith? As we're walking around aware, I'm sure these guys that need to have these conversations, they know that they should. It's challenging. So, for them to step over that line, for them set up that meeting, and to have that conversation means stepping out in faith - trusting God with that conversation, even as we prepare our hearts appropriately to be loving and careful. Maybe there's a guy listening or reading right now thinking about a conversation that he needs to have and has felt reluctant to have that conversation, even though he knows it needs to happen. How would you talk to them about the role of faith and have a godward perspective as we think about having these frank conversations?
Mark Prater:
That’s a great question, Ben. When we get to a place where we're going to need to have a frank conversation, we've got one or two ways to go, right? We can have it or we cannot have it. And I think choosing to not have it is the most difficult path.
Neither decision is easy, but choosing not to is the more difficult path. Not only does it linger in your mind, in your own soul. What I've seen over the years is, actually in many cases, the issue lingers and sometimes gets worse. Then it becomes more of a problem than if the hard conversation had occurred earlier on. I believe you are choosing a more difficult path to avoid the frank conversation. And it does require faith. It's a trust in God. “Faith is the assurance of what we hope for, and do not see” – to paraphrase Hebrews 11.
There is this faith, that in God, what you hope for this person, whatever it might be, is something that is a part of your thinking, even if it's not received well, even if they disagree with you, you have been faithful to bring them what you think is best for them to hear. Whether it's an issue of character or gifting or whatever it might be, and trust God with the results. And if it's rejected, first of all, I wouldn't say that you failed, you were faithful. And secondly, a lot of times people, they need time to process things.
Benjamin Kreps:
That's right.
Mark Prater:
And many times, they’ll come back and say, “You know what? You are right about that.” They will respect you more and appreciate you more because you were the one person that was willing to say something to them that made them uneasy. We need to look beyond the hard conversation and trust that God will use it, in his way and his time.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. We definitely don't want to give ourselves magical thinking that - if we just ignore it long enough - it'll just go away. I so appreciate your encouragement. We do our best to prepare our hearts, to make sure that we are entering that kind of conversation with humility, with discernible gratitude, even as we speak frankly, but trusting as well, - whatever happens - God has ordained the result. I've had lots of conversations that I've dreaded, and in the end, the relationship was strengthened because there was this honesty for finally getting honest. And often there's things lingering, unsaid but felt in relationships in the church because these conversations are being had. Or it could be someone decides that they don't appreciate you and it is time to move on. Whatever the case, if we do our best to be faithful to what God has called us to, which includes these frank conversations, we can trust the outcome to God. And that's a relief for every pastor who is reluctant to have a frank conversation.
Mark Prater:
One other thought regarding the question you asked about faith. Think about it this way. God has, in his kindness, spoken to us in many ways through his word, and he says encouraging things. He says wonderful things, he says amazing things, but he also says things to us that are uneasy.
And his motive is that of love. He does speak the truth to us through his word. So, faith to have a frank conversation means that you believe you're reflecting the heart of and the truth of God, and that pleases God.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. Well, thank you, Mark - not only your care in the way that you think about our family of churches - but also your willingness to help us to grow. We certainly all feel that need to grow. I know you feel that need as well. And so, thank you for your encouragement. Thank you everyone for checking out the pod, and we'll see you here next week. Lord willing. Bye for now.