Sovereign Grace Music Worship Matters Intensives
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace Churches with our executive director Mark, we have a guest.
Mark Prater:
You do! The most famous man in Sovereign Grace.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes. And one of our favorite people. We have Bob Kauflin with us. I'm at the Pastor's College this week attending a class on Understanding the Biblical Prophets with Dr. Peter Gentry. It's been fantastic. Now we're at the end of the week and since I'm here and Bob's here, we decided to record a podcast with you. Mark, where are you?
Mark Prater:
I'm at my office, in my home.
Bob Kauflin:
Wish you were here.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, me too.
Benjamin Kreps:
So we could talk with Bob about all kinds of stuff, but what we want to talk to Bob about today is the Worship Matters Intensive. So why don't you get us started, Mark?
Mark Prater:
Yeah, I wanted to dedicate an episode to this because I think these Worship Matters Intensives are really important and what I would really want to hear guys to hear in this podcast is, “Let's send more Sovereign Grace guys!”
Let’s get worship leaders and pastors to the Worship Matters intensives. We were talking before we started recording. Bob says, actually we're starting to get a few more Sovereign Grace guys, that's great news. Let's keep sending them in part because worship leaders really do impact the Sunday service and we want to do our Sunday services in a Christ exalting way. But also we've got first generation worship leaders that are transitioning out and second and third generation guys are stepping in. This training program is really well done and is intended to serve Sovereign Grace worship leaders. So Bob, thank you for putting the Worship Matters Intensive together. Tell us why you even created the Worship Matters Intensive.
Bob Kauflin:
Well first, thanks for having me on. I love this context and I love being able to talk to our guys about how we're seeking to serve our churches because Sovereign Grace's music exists to serve our churches.
And obviously the larger body of Christ as well. But it was 2017, I think when we had our first one and I had written Worship Matters back in 2008. That's when it came out. And the Lord has so kindly used that in the church, our churches and beyond. And I was just thinking, talking with Devon and others about how can we train guys, not just use a book, but how can we train guys? What format could that take, and what could that look like? We were coming up with new stuff and then Brittany, my daughter, was my admin at that time came into the office and I told her what I was doing and she said, dad, why don't you just build this on your book? And it was like a Holy Spirit moment where they both said, that's a great idea and you're really dumb. So you could approach it like a school, a three month thing or a year long thing. I didn't want to do that. I didn't think that would be practical. So we thought Wednesday night through Sunday, where we are going through the content basically of the book Worship Matters. In which I tried to put everything I could think of at that time to connect theology with methodology. That's where that book hits.
It's not Engaging with God by David Peterson. It's not For the Glory of God by Daniel Block. And it's not 10 Practical Tips for Leading Music in Your Church. It's looking at our theology and saying this is what it means for our life, for our leading, for our relationships. And that's what the book covers. So we cover all of that in the intensive and when we first started, I think we were having 18 guys come each time. So we just did our twentieth intensive. Wow. Over 300 guys have gone through it. A lot of those were outside Sovereign Grace. We just made it available to whoever wanted to do it. And so it's evolved and this is one of the best things I do, I think.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. I think we started going to Living Hope, the church I serve at in 2007/08. I remember getting Worship Matters when it first came out. We've benefited from that book over the years, given away countless copies and recently we sent our music director Tyler Margeson just a couple months ago, and I think he’s the first guy from Living Hope that’s been sent to the Worship Matters Intensive.
Bob Kauflin:
I've been waiting for you guys to send someone!
Benjamin Kreps:
We finally sent someone and we’ll send two more. He's a bivocational guy, he's our pastoral resident music director, and so it made a lot of sense to send him. He came back with all kinds of helpful input that he received and encouragement. But the Worship Matters Intensive isn't just for guys that are staff or music directors. There's a broader collection of folks that can come to the Worship Matters intensive. Who is the Worship Matters intensive for?
Bob Kauflin:
Well, it is primarily for that guy who leads the music. That's why I really want to equip and I should say we really want to equip because David Zimmer and Fabrizio Rodulfo also play. They attend and they participate in conversations. But what's been happening is pastors have been coming with their music guy to observe and support and experience that relationship for that time. That's been huge because you're able to interact over the material. We've seen for a while now if the pastors don't get it, that it doesn't matter what the music guy gets.
We don't want to be talking to all the music guys and then going back and saying, “Hey, what about this? What about that?” And the pastors going, “Hey….”
And you talk Mark, about first generation leaders. I think there's been a transition for sure from first, second to third generation. And the first generation guys and I put myself in that category, we can think, “Hey, we've been doing this for 30 - 40 years, we're good to go.” That’s not the way it is.
We're always going back to scripture to say, “Is this the wisest thing? Is this the most biblical thing? Is this the most helpful thing?” asking all those questions. And that's what the intensive is designed to do. Ask those questions about your life, about your leadership, about your relationships in a way that's going to really affect your church. And that's the intention. It's not just to have a good time with 15, 16 guys and go home. That was really just great. We're challenging guys to ask the questions. So I would say generally it is for the person who is most responsible for leading the music in your church. Any pastors who might want to accompany. The pastor coming won't necessarily stand up and lead at the intensive, but they'll be there taking in all the content and being involved in the conversations. So that can be extremely helpful.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent.
Mark Prater:
We may have guys that are listening or reading the transcript of this podcast who are somewhat regularly leading singing on Sunday morning, but they're also got a full-time job and they may be asking the question, is this worth me taking vacation days to travel to Louisville to spend a few days with Bob, Fabrizio and David? So how would they benefit? How would they benefit from spending those few days with you?
Bob Kauflin:
Well, this is somewhat awkward for me, but here is what spending time with me will benefit you. I would say that for one, we have everyone who comes watch the 11 videos that we put together of the intensive. When the intensive first began, I pretty much taught a lot of it and we had some Q&A. It's morphed over the years to be something that's much more conversational and I think helpful for the guys who come. Everybody watches the worship matter intensive videos before they come and get all the information.
When we get together, the guy actually leads and gets evaluated. What's good about what you've done, what could change about what you've done? And we video it and send it back with them so they can review it. Every guy says, “Not only was that helpful for me, but it was helpful seeing 14 other guys get that kind of input.” We have an opportunity to ask a lot of questions. So it's not that you have to change everything about what you're doing. This would be the same for anything we do, preaching or serving in any way. What can be better? What would be more biblical? And we approach it from all different kinds of levels. We begin with your heart. Are you doing this for the glory of Jesus or your own glory? Why are you doing this?
You'll grow in skills there, communication skills, musical skills, but we'll talk about how we construct our meetings. That’s another one, “We've been doing it this way for 30 years, why change?” Well, because maybe there's some things you're doing that aren't as helpful or that could be more directly glorifying to Jesus, more bringing people into His word than what you're doing. We changed things radically when we moved here to Louisville almost 13 years ago, and we're still changing things. So it's just having guys ask those questions, how can we do this better? And in the end, leaving with a fresh appreciation for how glorious Jesus is and why.
Mark Prater:
That's great. Ben, you mentioned that you just recently sent Tyler who does hold a full-time job, I believe he is a police officer. What was it like for him?
Benjamin Kreps:
Well, I think it's something that he's wanted to do for a while, and so it was just a delight and a joy.
Bob Kauflin:
He’s a great addition to the group.
Benjamin Kreps:
We love Tyler and have benefited from the grace in his life for 17 years at Living Hope. And so yeah, it was passed due to get him to Louisville for an intensive. And so he did it, he took vacation and sacrificed some of that in order to go. And I can safely say he wouldn't regret a moment of that because he benefited deeply from taking that time away to come down and I'm grateful for it.
Bob Kauflin:
When he came back, was there anything specific that you saw? Because I'm always asking guys this, what changed about the way he thought about something, the way he approached something and Tyler was in a great place when he came. It wasn't like some guys I watch, it is an interview process. I watch videos guys if they have them. I don't encourage live streams, but if they have them yet, I watch them and just see how they lead and try and get guys who I think will really benefit from what we're doing. But I was interested in, was there things, anything that changed about the way he thought about what he did?
Benjamin Kreps:
I mean the reality is we've benefited from your teaching. Bob for a long time and so there wouldn't have been a bunch of new categories for him and the categories you're addressing, we're talking about regularly as a team. But there was a deepening of some things when it comes to thinking through leading through a meeting. But even just some practical help with tone while leading that was helpful that something that we had actually talked about but was reinforced and was clarified for him. But I think another element that he really found enjoyable was the relational piece. He came away from that having made friends, that he's now texting with in other parts of the country. Guys that aren't even in Sovereign Grace but now has developed friendships. So even that as well has been a wonderful fruit and effect of that several days together.
Bob Kauflin:
And that's something I didn't mention Mark when you asked the question. That's one of the key elements of the intensive is you walk away with 14 - 16 new friends and some of the guys have kept up on Facebook. The most recent class kept up on a text chain. But you have guys who are doing what you're doing, they're wanting to grow and now it is a source of encouragement, a means of grace for one another. And then the contributions during the intensive are really significant. So that's been a real help. It's not just come and listening to me. It is hearing the insights of the guys who are there who really care about it.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. Well, your second one of this year is coming up not too far from now, but it's full.
Bob Kauflin:
We had 45 guys apply for 15 spots.
Benjamin Kreps:
Good problem to have.
Bob Kauflin:
It is, it's hard.
Benjamin Kreps:
But that also means that there's guys that want to come, I'm sure that may be unable to come this year or maybe just learning about this and are thinking about this as a possibility. Next year, you have two more Worship Matters Intensives. One is in February, one is in June of 2026. How do you guys learn more about those weeks together and how did someone register for that?
Bob Kauflin:
We try to keep it a secret.
Benjamin Kreps:
Its not working very well.
Bob Kauflin:
Yeah, if you go to sovereigngracemusic.com, under training and you'll look up Worship Matters intensive. All the information is there and you can apply there. You apply to be a part, and then we let guys know by a certain date whether they've been acceptable. It’s usually four months out so they can make plans. And Sovereign Grace guys always get first dibs. If there's a Sovereign Grace guy that signs up, they're in, unless there's already 40 guys, then its harder. But as you mentioned, Mark, we really do, we want to see our churches benefiting from all that the Lord has been teaching us over the last few decades. Our Sunday gathering is such a significant part of what we do, and over the years, we as pastors haven't always given as much attention thought to it and maybe don't have the time to really invest. So we want to serve the guys who are serving our churches by equipping them. Now when it comes down to it, the local church has got to do the discipleship trainings, the liturgy planning, all those things. But the intensive is somewhat of a shot in the arm, a boost for all those things. And I think can get someone down the road, someone who maybe just started leading, someone who's been leading for 10 years, someone who's been leading for 20 years. I think any of those guys can come to an intensive and walk away with things that will affect what they do on a Sunday morning.
Mark Prater:
Well said. I wanted you to speak to one other training equipping opportunity. That's actually for guys out on the West Coast, worship leaders and pastors on the West Coast. You're actually going to be, you and your team Bob, in California in October, and there's going to be the Sovereign Grace Music California Conference. I think it's October 1st – 4th, in Santa Clarita. Tell us about that conference. Who should come and how they would register for that?
Bob Kauflin:
That is a great question. Well, same thing to register, you just go to sovereigngracemusic.com and under training, the first thing I think listed is California Music Conference. We didn't call it the Worship God conference. That's really an every other year conference. It's a brand, if you will, but it'll be very similar to it. There's some teachings we're doing there that have been done at other worship God conferences. Dane Ortlund is going to be with us. Rick Gamache is preaching. Mike Bullmore is going to be with us. And then Jon Payne's preaching. I'm going to be preaching along with Devon. But it's really for anyone who plans, participates in, leads your Sunday gathering. The conference is called Your Gathering and the Gospel. And it is such a burden that we have in Sovereign Grace that we want to continually encourage each other in, but also be a means of grace to other churches. To say that if what God accomplished through Jesus through his life, death and resurrection is not driving what you're doing when you gather, if it is not evident, if it is not fueling, if not people aren't moved by it, well, something is not quite right.
And maybe even a step back from that if your life isn't affected by it. That's one of the reasons Dane is coming, just to talk about that. Just to talk about how should this affect us. We’ll have training, masterclasses on the Wednesday, October 1st for specific musicians, pianists. I'm doing the one for pianists appropriately. Bass drummers, vocalists, guitarists. And then during the conference we'll have breakouts for leaders and musicians and general audience. But yeah, if you want to take a trip with your team, this would be a great trip to take. Santa Clarita, what can I say?
Bob Kauflin:
It's been held in a church where Ryan Foglesong is a pastor. Ryan has played bass for us for 14 - 15 years. He's not in Sovereign Grace, but he's a dear friend songwriter for us and just loves what we do. He's a pastor at Grace Baptist Church where the conference will be held. We would love, if you missed Worship God this past year, this would be a real means of grace to you.
Mark Prater:
That's great. You mentioned Ryan being a songwriter. I saw in the schedule, you’ve got a, I don't remember exactly whether it's a Q&A panel or breakout, that is dedicated to songwriting.
Bob Kauflin:
Yes.
Mark Prater:
So this is a conference for songwriters to come to, is that right?
Bob Kauflin:
Absolutely. Yeah. So I think we're doing, “Why we write Sovereign Grace songs”, that talks about the process of songwriting, which is much more complicated than you think. I wish it was “Here, get a song, record it. It's out.” So people have asked us about that and we did of those at the Worship God conference, it went so well. We're just going to do it again. And I think, yeah, anybody. We will have tech training there as well.
We want everybody who's engaged in the process of the meeting to understand, it's all connected to the gospel. We're not professionals, we're not just doing a production. This is for the maximum participation of the church because of what Jesus has done for us.
Mark Prater:
On behalf of all the pastors and members of Sovereign Grace Churches, I just want to communicate our gratitude for you. You have just led Sovereign Grace Music so well and not only equipped us to grow in the way that singing is led in a God glorifying way on Sundays. You've given us these excellent songs to sing, which is why I wanted to mention the songwriters component of the conference. So we just thank God for you, Bob. You are a gift to us and a very unique gift to us. And we want you to know I'm speaking for all Sovereign Grace, our appreciation for you.
Bob Kauflin:
Thank you, Mark. There's no other place in the world I would rather be. And Sovereign Grace Music wouldn't exist without Sovereign Grace Churches. And we exist to serve Sovereign Grace Churches and the larger body of Christ, but especially our pastors and the members of our churches, and it is a pure joy.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent. Well, let me add my voice as well to the upcoming conference. I've not gone to that one. Of course the one that's not Worship God this year, but I've gone to Worship God several times. It is one of my very favorite conferences I've ever attended. So any pastors out there on the fence, especially lead guys leading a church, you will benefit from attending this conference as well. Whether or not you are participating in leading the music or not, you are participating as leading worship in your church as a pastor in the church.
Bob Kauflin:
You don't have to be a musician to benefit from this conference.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes. Excellent. Well, thank you for joining us on the podcast. Look forward to hearing about the fruit and effect of the Intensives in next year's rollout. We're sending two guys, hopefully, maybe they can get in.
Bob Kauflin:
They're in!
Benjamin Kreps:
So they're going to reapply because they were part of the 45 that weren't able to get in. But no, we are grateful at Living Hope as well for you, not just in Sovereign Grace specifically because of the benefit we've derived from your leadership and your investment in us. So thank you, Bob. Thank you, Mark. And thank you everyone for checking out the podcast. We'll see you here next week. Lord willing. Bye for now.