You Ask, We Answer
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone and welcome to the Mark Prater podcast - where our aim is to connect our global family of Sovereign Grace Churches with our executive director. Mark, we have another question from the mailbag, and I think it is an excellent question, so thank you to the guy who submitted this question. We will endeavor to interact with the question and bring some clarity to it. So, here's the question - let's just get going right away - in light of our Complementarian values, how should we receive unbelievers or believers who differ from us?
Mark Prater:
Yeah, it is a great question and I really appreciate it. Pat Parris actually sent in this question.
Benjamin Kreps:
Secrets out.
Mark Prater:
Yes, secrets out. Pat is a member of Risen Hope Church in Prospect Park, Pennsylvania. He helped plant that church several years ago and has been in Sovereign Grace for a very long time. In fact, he and Lynn were in Costa Rica a couple of years ago and spent several months there investing in one of our churches in Cartago. He has served Sovereign Grace and strengthens our family of churches. So, shout out to Pat.
It's a great question, partly because we want unbelievers to come to Sovereign Grace churches.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes, same here.
Mark Prater:
We want that because we're hoping to reach more people who don't know Christ with the good news of the gospel. And so, as I thought about this question, you and I talked about it, and I would answer it. We would answer it differently for unbelievers compared to believers who come to our church. And again, we're assuming they differ with us. That's part of it, the assumption in the question. So I think that's the best way to approach it. What do you think?
Benjamin Kreps:
I think so. That sounds like a great approach.
In the category of unbelievers, let's just divide it into two categories. Let's start with unbelievers. What are your thoughts about how we receive unbelievers who differ from us about our complementarian values?
Mark Prater:
First of all, we welcome unbelievers. We receive them warmly. We are joyful, delighted, and glad that they are with us. I think what’s most important when an unbeliever comes - anybody who's a Christian would say this - it's most important that they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The state of their soul is what is most important because eternity is at stake. We want them to hear the gospel, experience the joy, and the grace-saturated life that we enjoy. That is the fruit of the gospel in our lives in the context of the local church; they begin not just to hear the gospel, but they begin to experience what gospel life is really all about. So, I wouldn't necessarily make it an immediate priority to discuss our complementarian convictions. I would want to get to know them, I'd want to hear them, I want to know where they're at. And I think you mentioned that similar approach, didn't you, Ben, that you would just draw them out and ask a lot of questions?
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, I mean the reality is people are complicated. I don't think that's a revelation, but people are often complicated and inconsistent. As you interact with an unbeliever, I think a wise approach is to ask questions. Jesus was the master of doing this, discerning the heart motivations of people by asking good questions, because we don't want to jump to conclusions. We want to actually understand where they're coming from. Maybe they don't have a category for this at all, maybe they do, and they have an agenda, and they're looking to cause some trouble. I mean, we really just need to understand what's behind their potential curiosity or questions when it comes to complementarianism. I mean, what's most important is that those who attend our churches understand what we are about in the first place, which is preaching Christ.
And we must, for instance, never give the impression that in order to become a Christian, one must first become complementarian or anything else, even though we are grateful for the biblical theology of men and women, and we celebrate that. Just as you're saying, we want anyone who comes to our churches to understand what we are about - first and foremost, it is Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead. But having said that, I think in its proper place, and over time as we're interacting with folks and people are checking out our churches, the reality is that a complementarian marriage is imperfect but beautiful living, a vivid, observable illustration of the gospel. That picture of Christ and his church and the love and respect and submission in all of that. And so, I think there's potentially even an evangelistic usefulness, if I can put it that way. There are a few more controversial issues for us than this conviction, culturally speaking, but really, as people are exposed to the teachings of the church and the community of the church, the illustrative power of a healthy complementarian marriage, I think we shouldn't give that short shrift either. I think that God can use that as well.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's the beauty of complementarianism that you want unbelievers to experience maybe seen in the life of a single because you can see complementarian beauty in a single life of a man or woman, but also certainly in marriage as well. And if an unbeliever does ask direct questions, we don't want to shy away from those, we want to answer those. So they might ask, why don't you have women pastors here for example, and we're going to answer that. I would answer that, you would do the same, not in a contentious way,
But in a gracious way, taking them to God's word and showing them from scripture, going to Genesis 1 & 2, for example, God creates man and woman equal in dignity and value. But certainly, in Genesis 2, giving us roles where we actually work together to have dominion over the earth and when those roles function in the way God designs, it's just a wonderful thing. That's the basis for 1 Timothy 2:11-15, which talks about complementarian leadership in the church, for example. So I'd want to show them God's word, and this is not just the way we do things, but we do these things because they're based on how God instructs us and just interact with them over that.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's appropriate to bring 2 Timothy 2 into play in all of this as well.
“The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone able to teach patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.”
So, even just making sure that in situations where there are very real possibilities that you could get into a contentious conversation with someone about this. And so it is incumbent on us whether we're pastors or we are just following Jesus for everyone who follows Jesus, everyone who's serving Christ to ensure that yeah, this can be a topic that can be contentious, controversial to people, and so ensuring that we are approaching those kinds of conversations with a gentle and quiet spirit, even in an awkward moment, especially I would say in an awkward moment, showing those who disagree with us, that we ourselves have been affected by the gospel even in the way that we disagree with others as well.
Mark Prater:
One other thought, and this would apply to both believers who are coming, perhaps with differing opinions on complementarianism, and unbelievers, but I think especially to unbelievers. I think another thing that we can do as pastors and as members of our churches is to practice hospitality and to invite them into our homes.
Benjamin Kreps:
Excellent!
Mark Prater:
It's one thing to see the beauty of complementarianism lived out in the church. Again, not perfectly in Sovereign Grace churches - hopefully there's some beauty there - but it is a little different to see it in the home and can actually magnify the beauty of complementarianism. Again, not perfectly in any way, but just being with you, your spouse and children, or if you're single and you're spending time together as singles, there's a beauty of complementarianism that can come out in the home that's wonderful and a little bit different in some ways than a local church context.
Benjamin Kreps:
That's an excellent point. I mean, just a modern more recent example would be someone like Rosaria Butterfield in her book “The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert” where she's this militant anti-Christian strident woman, and yet God used just the hospitality of a neighbor, a pastor who invited this strident, angry young woman into their home to experience exactly what you're talking about, and God used that in part when it came to her conversion. A wonderful encouragement as well when it comes to hospitality and unbelievers. So that's the first category, and time does not allow us, there's so much more that we could say, but we're going to keep moving, and we're going to move to the second category. How do we receive believers who differ from us about these complementarian values that we hold to?
Mark Prater:
Yep! We welcome them, we welcome them warmly, just like we do unbelievers, and we love them. The place I would start, as I am getting to know them, is that I would want some assurance of their salvation. I want to know if they are truly followers of Christ and have placed their full faith and trust in the finished work of Jesus. I would also, at some point, want to make them aware of our complementarian convictions. I don't know if I would do that right away. I think it would depend on who they are and how I get to know them. It goes back to you asking questions. As you said, Ben, are they coming with a potentially hidden agenda, or are they just more teachable? There can be those distinctions when you encounter people because making those distinctions helps you to know which direction to take the conversation, I believe. Anything you would add to that?
Benjamin Kreps:
I think you're exactly right. When it comes to believers, of course, we're all on a spectrum, and I think back to my conversion in my late twenties and just how deeply ignorant I was of the scriptures and confident in a lot of foolish perspectives that I had - we don't know where people are at. We don't initially know their background, and so I think we're really caring for someone and seeking to serve them by understanding where they're coming from - again, people are complicated. You could have somebody show up and really have an agenda to want to undermine the biblical convictions that you celebrate at your church, and so that is going to be addressed differently than someone who just doesn't have categories for this stuff. My wife and I, along with our family, took a new family from the church out to lunch on a Sunday, and we were discussing reform theology.
The husband doesn't have any categories. He had never been introduced to concepts found in the scriptures and was eager to learn. So, I gave him some suggestions about places to read in scripture, and he was happy to hear that. I don't know where he'll end up, but that is a very different thing than that couple who shows up and they have an agenda and they're going to make sure that you understand you are wrong and maybe they're even going to stick around and try to help everybody else figure out they're wrong too, that that's a different animal, someone who's just seeking to grow.
And so we don't want to answer a fool according to his folly, and so we don't want to get sucked into needless controversy and endless argument, but we do want to make ourselves available to serve folks, to invest in them, to point them to the scriptures. I would doubt that there are a few people who have been argued into a theological position, battered into a position. It's typically someone who's going to inform you, 'I saw it in God's Word,' and that's what we're after: helping people keep looking at their Bibles, learning, reading, and growing in their understanding and maturity.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, I think whether someone who's a believer has an agenda or someone who's more teachable, let's say, I think that how you speak into that is very similar.
However, how you do it is very important, which is kind of what you were saying. You were referencing 2nd Timothy 2:24-25, where we're correcting our opponents with gentleness sort of language there, that the Lord's servant is not quarrelsome, the pastor is not to be quarrelsome. So we're not quarrelsome over these things. We're just having a gracious conversation, even if they're getting a bit upset about it; we remain patient and gracious with them, taking them to God's word. Some of the passages I mentioned before, the other thing I would do for a believer, regardless of how they're coming, is I would encourage them to read sections of our statement of faith.
Benjamin Kreps:
Great idea!
Mark Prater:
So, I would start with God's Word – you have to start there. I think the statement of faith can be very helpful, and I would encourage reading the editor's edition because of the additional footnotes, which include many valuable scriptures. The section of our statement of faith that's entitled ‘Creation, Providence, and Man’, and there are three subsections in particular that I would encourage. The first one is ‘Man's Creation in God's image’, which is obviously in Genesis 1 - that men and women are created in image of God, we're equal in dignity and value of course, and then man as male and female, again, you're going back to Genesis 1, he made us male and female designed in his image, built and created in his image. Let me just read that men and women are both made in the image of God and are equal before him in dignity and worth. Gender designated by God through our biological sex is therefore neither incidental to our identity, nor fluid in its definition, but is essential to our identity as male and female. Although the fall distorts and damages God's design for gender and expression, these remain part of the beauty of God's created order. Men and women reflect and represent God in distinct and complementary ways, and these differences are to be honored and celebrated in all dimensions of life.
It is just really well-written. It's written in a way that I think highlights the beauty of complementarianism, and the section 'Marriage, Sexuality, and Singleness' is a wonderful read. It states that biblical manhood and womanhood enrich human flourishing in all its dimensions. Just a great sentence, right? God instituted marriage as the union of one man and one woman who complement each other in a one-flesh union and ultimately served as a type of the union between Christ and His church.
This remains the only normative pattern of sexual relations for humanity. Husbands are to exercise headship, sacrificially, and with humility, and wiser to serve as helpers to their husbands, willingly supporting and submitting to their leadership. Together, these complementary roles bring joy and blessing to each other and display the beauty of God's purposes to the world. Again, there's a beauty there. Then they proceed to discuss single men and women. Single men and women are no less able to enjoy and honor God and no less important to his purposes. They are also to give expression to God's image in distinct and complementary ways, flourishing as his image bears and bringing him glory in their singleness. Such a great section to have someone read through and discuss with a believer, as it's easy to then follow up and return to the scriptures to show them the basis of our convictions.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes, and I mean, I think it just needs to be said. We're talking about gender roles. We're not even addressing the fact that there are folks coming to your church who have distorted ideas about what gender even is in our modern culture. I love how the statement of faith even begins with that, is that gender is expressed through the way God created us as men and women. And so it could be even as we're talking about this, we actually have to start a little further back with some of our discipleship and certainly when it comes to welcoming folks in the church from the world where the categories are all distorted and corrupted. And so yes, our statement of faith is very helpful and I am freshly grateful for it. As you read it, we were talking about really how, before we started recording, how complementarianism needs to be connected, always connected to the gospel, and so that's one of the probably, actually, the most important ways that we show the beauty of it. Talk a little bit about that.
Mark Prater:
Yeah, it's very important to make that connection. I would emphasize two things when talking with believers: the beauty of complementarianism, but I would start with this because I think the beauty of it flows from the gospel connection. We are committed and devoted to complementarianism because of its connection to the gospel. One connection, obviously, is evident in Genesis 1, where men and women are created in the image of God, thereby equal in dignity and value. In Genesis 2, God then assigns complementary roles and ways for us to work together to have dominion over the earth. What you see in Genesis 3 is that sin corrupts all of that.
And so, Jesus comes and he brings the gospel to redeem us from our sin and to redeem what the fall has broken. When we pursue complementarian convictions in marriage or in single life, we are actually living out God's good design in the way He originally intended it. Not that we don't have still distortions of sin in our complementarianism, of course we do indwelling sin still remains, but we're committed because of that gospel connection and by his grace that we have through the gospel, we can more and more live in a way that reflects God's good design that he gave us that creation.
Benjamin Kreps:
Wonderful. I think it's important that sometimes in these kinds of interactions where there's disagreement, there certainly can be this angst and concern at times, and then that's appropriate at times, but really understanding that on the other side of embracing God's will when it comes to men and women, there's joy and praise. Recently, I was thinking about Psalm 119:7, where the psalmist says, 'I will praise you with an upright heart when I learn your righteous rule.' On the other hand, as people grow in maturity and understanding of God's will, as reflected in His many good and wise commandments throughout Scripture, there is praise, adoration, and joy. That is what we aim to help people achieve. This is not just about grinding it out until we all reach the same place. On the other side of this is submission to God's word, filled with praise for His good and wise will working itself out in our lives.
And that brings me to one last category for us to talk about, and that is there's going to be, and anybody who's been in a church for any length of time, a Sovereign Grace Church, we're confessional in our theology. We take positions and hold to them, as we see them in God's Word. We're going to interact with folks, possibly even members who have been part of the church for a long time, and there will be a longstanding, continuing disagreement and inability to find theological alignment on these sorts of things. Talk about that. So, when it comes to pastors or members in churches interacting with individuals who just can't seem to reach a point of agreement or theological alignment, how do we approach that?
Mark Prater:
Yeah, I think you're going to have that in any church, and pastors obviously face that somewhat regularly as you have Ben. I think what you want to discover first, after a lot of long, patient, and loving conversation, is the conviction for them, something that they're willing to maybe not fully adopt, but they'll be okay with as a member.
That's very, very rare for most people. So, because they can't, you realize what's really best for their soul and really best for them is to help them just peacefully separate. Peaceful separation is a thing that can actually honor God when it's done. And so when somebody gets to that place, I just sit with them and try to open the door wide in terms of potentially leaving the church. I want them to know my gratitude as a pastor for how they've been a part of this church, whether they're a member or not, and for the ways they've served it. And it's okay to leave. I want to help you find another good local church that preaches God's word and especially the gospel itself, and if you leave, we just want you leaving knowing our gratitude and let's do it peaceably. And I think when you lead them through that just in a peaceable way, peaceful separation does serve them and it can serve the church and they begin to just thrive where they're at. At least that's the prayer and that's the hope. Would you add anything to that approach?
Benjamin Kreps:
Those are helpful thoughts. I would add that I think there can be a temptation for pastors, in particular, when it comes to people leaving the church. Perhaps you're pastoring in a smaller church context, and we just need everybody we have. So there are temptations that can come to a pastor that can just look like, maybe I won't address this, or we'll just sort of work our way around and figure out how to accommodate and that sort of thing. And certainly, we want to be people who seek to accommodate where it is beneficial and God-glorifying. I mean, when I'm sitting across from someone who sincerely loves Jesus and we differ on a theological issue, first and foremost, I want to be very careful on the way I address that person because that person, if a genuine Christian is deeply loved and treasured by God, and so it is not my place to mess with people that Jesus loves unnecessarily.
And so this gentleness that is commanded of us, gentle, kind, even joyful in the face of disagreement, I think, is appropriate many times. But entrusting your church to God means understanding that at times it is best for individuals to separate from our church, best for them, best for the church, but we can do that in a way that glorifies God. We can do it just as you're saying, with gratitude and commendation, maybe even saying, ' You know what? ' I just think, I mean, there comes a time where very well it could be and does happen often where someone just after a long time of discussion and disagreement and argument and back and forth, you're just really beginning to realize these folks are not going to move toward embracing our theological convictions. And so, that's not a cause for alarm, although in some situations, it could certainly be very sad.
That is an opportunity to trust God, trust God with the church that you serve, and to love those people. Maybe even seeking to say things like, you know what? We just need not be angry in all of this, but I think maybe we could help you find a different church that would better serve you, or if you're married or have kids, or if you and your family would be better suited to a different church. And so in the end, we're all going to be in heaven together, and all of our theology will be corrected here and there by God himself. And so we are liberated from the need to cling to and keep together and hold in place things when it comes to our church and who attends the church; we're liberated from that. This isn't God's hands. We simply speak the truth and love, trusting God.
And if separation happens, we can love those people. Unlike a world that declares you in or out, black-and-white relationships often cut off over disagreement. We can commend them and send them off, entrusting them to the word of God's grace in that disagreement as well. Separation is not only something that can be walked through in a way that glorifies God; actually, it can be necessary and a blessing for folks who are leaving the church as well, so we can trust God to have that. We did an episode a few weeks ago that, if you haven't heard it, I commend it, and I recommend going back and listening to Mark's thoughts on having frank conversations. One thing to be cautious of is not having those necessary conversations in the name of unity. We are not looking to provoke needlessly, but there are times when we really need to sit, speak frankly, and work through things, trusting God and loving others even in disagreement.
Mark Prater:
Well said. We have to have those frank conversations in a loving way.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yes. Again, as you said, while a frank conversation is certainly necessary, no one relishes a difficult conversation. If you do, I have concerns, but no one enjoys a difficult or awkward conversation. But if we know that on the other side of speaking truth and love lies God's blessing, whatever that may look like, He knows what's best for us, then we can do that in faith and step out in faith to have those hard conversations. And if separation occurs, let it be peaceful. Let us be found, both members and pastors, loving those who choose to separate and trusting them to God.
Mark Prater:
Amen. Amen.
Benjamin Kreps:
Wonderful. Well, thank you, Mark, for your thoughts. Thank you, Pat. Thank you, thank you, Pat, for the good question. And we, again, welcome anyone checking out the podcast; we love questions. And if you have questions, where can people send their questions?
Mark Prater:
Simply visit markkprater.com, and on the homepage, you'll find a section to submit your questions.
Benjamin Kreps:
Great. We can't promise to answer every question, but we will look for helpful ones, so please submit your questions. Perhaps we have some, and we're grateful to everyone who checks out the podcast. So thank you, Mark, for your thoughts. Thank you all for checking out the podcast. We'll see you here next week. Lord willing. Bye for now.